05 What is Vision Therapy? - a podcast by The InBound Podcasting Network

"If you want to understand the whole child you must understand their visual system and if you want to understand their visual system you must understand the whole child.” - Famed Yale pediatrician, Dr. Arnold Lucius Gesell

Vision therapy is a brain-based program of "eye exercises" designed to change the way one’s neural networks control any variety of visual skills which are assessed and remediated. Douglas W. Stephey, O.D., M.S provides information regarding the various vision therapy methods utilized in his practice.

Douglas W. Stephey, O.D., M.S.

208 West Badillo St Covina, CA 91723

Phone: 626-332-4510

Website: http://bit.ly/DouglasWStephey

Website Videos: http://bit.ly/DrStepheyOptometryVideos

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 Transcription Below:

Tim Edwards: The Move Look and Listen Podcast with Dr. Doug Stephey is brought to you by Audible. Get a free audio book download and a 30-day free trial audible membership www.audibletrial.com/inbound. You'll find over 180,000 titles to choose from, including several books mentioned here in the podcast. Support the Move Look & Listen Podcast by visiting www.audibletrial.com/inbound. 

Dr. Stephey: If our two eyes are not working together well as a fast synchronized team. Our internal mapquest continues to be off. It's consistently inconsistent with our ability to judge time and space. Those that don't feel well-grounded, those that have some measure of anxiety, oftentimes it starts in the visual system. If you can't move, look and listen in a fast, accurate, effortless, sustainable, age-appropriate, meaningful way, you're in a world of hurt. There's a whole world in vision and how it affects brain function that no one's ever shared with you. 20/20 is perceived as a holy grail of going to the eye doctor. Well, I'm here to change that paradigm. 

Tim Edwards: This is the Move Look & Listen podcast with Dr. Doug Stephey. I'm Tim Edwards with the Inbound Podcasting Network and a patient of Dr. Stephey's and we appreciate you tuning into the podcast today. We know when you hear the, the term or the word or the profession, optometrist, you think I'm going to go get some glasses, get some contacts and be on my way. And that's traditionally what happens when you go see an optometrist. Well, if you listen to some of our previous episodes, you know that I have a video production marketing company and I have interviewed dozens of optometrists here in the southern California area, but there was this one day that I produced a video for Dr. Doug Stephey in Covina, California. That changed the way I thought of optometrists, or at least this one in particular. Because Dr. Stephey was the first optometrist that told me about vision therapy, not just how I could see 20/20. 

Tim Edwards: Dr. Stephey we have touched on vision therapy in previous episodes, and you talked a little bit about what it entails. But let's just dedicate an entire episode to vision therapy. Because future podcasts will depend upon the information we present today. 

Dr. Stephey: Tim, I think it's a wonderful idea and there is a lot of information and misinformation about vision therapy and what it is and what it does. So one of the first myths that I want to talk about is when somebody says, well, I heard vision therapy doesn't work. And I say it doesn't work to do what? And then they say, what do you mean? And I say, what do you mean?

Dr. Stephey: You're the one that said vision therapy doesn't work. I'm asking you it doesn't work to do what? And then they pause again and then I say jokingly, well, does vision therapy cure world hunger? No. Vision therapy doesn't work to do that? And then we have a chuckle about that because that seems so preposterous, right? 

Tim Edwards: Right. 

Dr. Stephey: But it opens the discussion to talk about what vision therapy does and doesn't do. For example, there are components within medicine and education that put out the argument. There is no proof that vision therapy cures dyslexia. Therefore vision therapy doesn't work. Well that's a heck of a statement and conclusion. I don't really know of any optometrist doing vision therapy that would make the claim that vision therapy cures dyslexia. 

Tim Edwards: That vision therapy or even glasses cures anything. 

Dr. Stephey: Well, that's my point. So when the false premise is written by others that want to denigrate vision therapy, that vision therapy, there's no evidence that vision therapy cures dyslexia. 

Dr. Stephey: Therefore vision therapy doesn't work and make a global blanket statement, right? That's the classic. You set up a strong man's argument and then argue the false premise. It's just wrong and it's disingenuous at best. So does vision therapy cure dyslexia? I would make the argument that no, vision therapy doesn't cure dyslexia. But we're back to the issue of what is vision therapy and what is it designed to do? Well, that's a really wonderfully complex and loaded question. 

Tim Edwards: But for those like me who've never heard of vision therapy before, what is it? 

Dr. Stephey: Right. What is it? So when I have that exact same conversation in the practice and I've got a limited amount of time to do it, kind of like doing this podcast. It goes something like this. I said, imagine a three circle venn diagram, one circle is can you see 20/20. The second circle is are your eyes healthy and that's where most eye doctors practice optometry and ophthalmology alike. 

Dr. Stephey: In those two circles. You can have an exam like that and be told everything is fine and you could still have a profound vision therapy problem because that exists in the third circle. It's like the third rail at the subway, right? The third rail. Well in this case, that third circle, in it has items like this retained primitive reflexes, magnocellular vision deficits, visual aliasing and visual stress, convergence and facility, accommodative infacility, accommodative dysfunction, motor planning and sequencing deficits, working memory and executive function issues, rapid naming skills deficits, even phonological processing deficits, and even some auditory processing outcomes are affected by visual skills. 

Tim Edwards: Okay, but I got to interrupt you because these are really cool sounding terms. 

Dr. Stephey: I know. 

Tim Edwards: But someone like me is like, I don't know what that is. 

Dr. Stephey: And ultimately that's really my point to start with. My point is that when I list those terms off and it sounds like I'm talking to foreign language, that's really my point because I say anything that I just said, does it sound like it's related to seeing 20/20 letters out an eye chart at 20 feet. And then patients are like, well, no, I've never heard of those things before. 

Dr. Stephey: Like that's my point. There's a whole world in vision and how it affects brain function that no one's ever shared with you. So in that context and in a simpler version of things, vision and auditory are our primary threat detectors. It's the primary sensory modality of how we interact with the world around us, both in us asking ourselves the question subconsciously, do we feel safe and do we have the visual skills to know where we are in space to be well grounded? And that goes to our sense of ego and our sense of self and how we fit in this world. We also use vision to read gestural language and facial expressions and I would argue that most social psychologist would make the argument that 80 percent of how we communicate is done through body language, not through the words that come out of our mouth. 

Dr. Stephey: There was a show called Lie to Me that was about reading body language. Remember reading body language isn't through touch or auditory. It's happening through vision. So there's a number of skills like the terminology I rattled off a few minutes ago that people don't know about. So my job as a neurodevelopmental optometrist is to figure out do you have such a problem and what areas might it lie in and how does it show up in your day to day life. Whether you have issues with driving at dusk or night time. Or I have some patients that avoid driving the freeway. I can't do it. It's too anxiety producing. 

Tim Edwards: I know several people that won't drive on the freeway, period. 

Dr. Stephey: That's a vision problem because driving at freeway speeds is about using your visual skills to judge the movement of time and space. And the faster the speed, the less time and space that you have in order to make that judgment, so people avoid it. 

Dr. Stephey: I have other people that don't drive in the carpool lane. The concrete dividers whizzing past their peripheral vision, acts like a magnet on their visual attention, and in some patients their car feels like it's demonized and wants to drive itself into the wall. So these vision therapy related skills and the deficits within those skills affect every aspect of our lives. I don't care if you're a baby learning speech or you're 90-years-old wanting to keep your drivers license, or not trip and fall and break something and then never recover from the broken bone. All of this ties into these visual skills. So in my estimation, the biggest challenge is doing the right assessment to start with. So you know all the pieces within that third circle of the venn diagram so that you can then create a developmental hierarchy to what should we treat first and second and third. Much like the expression you gotta walk before you run, or you got to crawl before you walk and you've got a rollover before you get up on all fours and before you can roll over, you've got to be able to lift your head off the floor. 

Dr. Stephey: You got to be able to push yourself up with your arms, got to know that your arms and legs even belong to you and that you have some voluntary control over them. That's all a developmental hierarchy and it ties in to the whole theme of my practice and this podcast, which move, look and listen. 

Tim Edwards: Dr. Stephey not looking for an exact number here, but maybe more of a ballpark figure. If someone hears the term like myself, vision therapy, my first thought would be, well that's probably a very small percentage of the population that needs something like that because of the word therapy. Right? But in your estimation, over your 30 years of being in practice, I'm sure that number's pretty high. What percentage of your patients you think could benefit from vision therapy? 

Dr. Stephey: I think the more general question is what about the population at large? Not just about my population? 

Tim Edwards: Yeah, absolutely. Sure. 

Dr. Stephey: So 10 to 20 percent of the population at large likely has a vision related deficit that they know nothing about because it falls in the third circle that's never been assessed. But again, just generally speaking, If we look at different subcategories in the population, autism, ADD, ADHD, working memory, executive dysfunction, reading disability, dyslexia, learning disorder, bipolar, schizophrenia, motion sickness and migraine, chronic headache, fatigue, pick one. 

Tim Edwards: Yeah, that's a lot of people. 

Tim Edwards: That's a lot of people. 

Dr. Stephey: That's a lot of people. It is estimated today that one out of, I think every 68 kids born today is getting a diagnosis of autism. 

Tim Edwards: Wow. 

Dr. Stephey: By 2030. It's speculated one out of every three kids and a retired psychiatrist that I know who's been to some continuing education says that where she's gone to the speculation is that by 2050 there'll be no neuro typical kids left. 

Tim Edwards: Well, that's a whole other podcast because I in the Inbound Podcasting Network, we have other clients that talk about what they believe are the reasons for that increase. We don't need to get into that right now, but there are hard numbers, true data to support what you just said. 

Dr. Stephey: Yep. So let's circle back to what is vision therapy then. The simplest explanation is that vision therapy is like physical therapy on the eyes and brain. Some people mistakenly think that vision therapy is something that we're doing that makes your eye muscles stronger. That is not the case. It's never a question or it's rarely ever a question that your eye muscles are quote unquote weak. What's more significant is how your brain tells those muscles what to do. So there's certain neural networks that control these skills. Visual attention, visual processing, speed. In lay terms, eye focusing, eye taming, eye tracking, visual-spatial skills, visual-auditory integration, visual-motor skills, visual-cognitive abilities. Again, each of those different categories has therapy tied to each of those singular items. But globally it's changing the way your brain tells your eyes what to do and it changes the way your brain processes visual data, so there's a sensory component..

Dr. Stephey: of how you take in visual information. There's an integrative component that's happening in your mind about how you process and assimilate that data in preparation for acting upon that data, usually through some sort of motor output, either with speech and language or that I've got to move from point a to point B or I've got to throw a ball from third base to first base or that I've got a parallel park her car and not hit the car in front of me or behind me. So you get the idea that vision's pretty pervasive in every waking second of everyday. So vision therapy is not making your eye muscles stronger. It's changing the way your brain processes visual input. That's the most simplest of explanations. And then there's a couple different models of the delivery of that care. There are models that would propose to really never, and you know the absolutes of never and always you're always going to want us to, you'rer always going to stay from absolutes.

Tim Edwards: I think we understand it. You're right and I'm guilty. 

Dr. Stephey: So one camp would say you need to do free space activities that do not involve a computer screen and that involved whole body component in the eye movement activities. So it's a whole body, eye movement experience and there's value in that. There was a pediatrician from Yale, I believe, named Arnold Gazelle back in the 50s, I believe it was. Worked with a handful of optometrists to study vision development from infancy up to the ages of 10 or 12. And one of the that that group wrote about way back then, think about that back in the 50s? They wrote, if you want to understand the child's vision, you have to understand the whole child and if you want to understand the whole child, you have to understand their vision development. So there seems to be a lot of misconception about that vision therapy is just an eyeball based activity. 

Dr. Stephey: It is not. It is a brain based activity. For example, there are 12 cranial nerves that are direct branches off the brain itself, major cranial nerve, 12 of them, roughly two thirds to three quarters of them are directly tied up in vision. That's a lot of brain space allocated towards vision and vision development. Vision development really is kind of a lifelong process. Something I just re-read a few weeks ago said that the beginnings of the optic nerve and the beginnings of the eyeball begins to take shape roughly two weeks after conception. That two weeks. And on the same vein, there's something called frontal lobe activity or executive function skills and I think in some behavioral optometry circles we might describe frontal lobe activity as visual imagery. Can you visually image the consequences of your actions? Frontal lobe activity or these visualization skills seemed to not really fully develop until our early to mid twenties. 

Dr. Stephey: So we're talking about.. 

Tim Edwards: Those are extremes right there. From two weeks after conception to our mid to late twenties or early what'd you say? Early to mid twenties? 

Dr. Stephey: Yes early to mid twenties. 

Tim Edwards: Oh my goodness. 

Dr. Stephey: Vision development takes place over quite a long time. And beyond that we maintain neuroplasticity in the brain over our lifetime. So we can always make changes to brain based behavior. I don't care how old you are. I think the oldest patient, this is such a funny story because I sometimes will tell the story in the office where somebody is contemplating do they want to do vision therapy? And I say, you know, I had a mother and her daughter come and do vision therapy in my practice maybe year and a half ago. And people listening to the story, they're like, oh, that's interesting. And I say the daughter was 62.

Dr. Stephey: They're like what? 

Tim Edwards: Changes the whole perspective. That's right. Wow. 

Dr. Stephey: Perception is everything. 

Tim Edwards: It is indeed. That's right. 

Dr. Stephey: Her mom was in the early nineties. 

Tim Edwards: How about that. 

Dr. Stephey: So it's never too late to do this in therapy. 

Tim Edwards: So again, when you say that I'm chomping at the bit to go. What do we do? What is vision therapy like? You're talking about, you know, getting away from a screen but aren't there software packages that you have or where you need to be in front of a screen, and then there's getting out into the world and doing things. 

Dr. Stephey: There is. So everybody is different. Everbody's their unique individual. Research studies are nice for global kind of statistics relative to the general population, but at the end of the day when you're sitting in my chair, your unique needs are your unique needs. So my job is to do a proper assessment to start with and then come up with a developmentally appropriate plan. What I go back to the comment about the name of this podcast, Move Look & Listen. My model, generally speaking from bottom up, we look at nutritional components of how you're functioning. We look at something called the retained primitive reflexes. We look at something called millisecond timing clock deficits, and whether they exist in your brain. You know the expression you are, he is walking to the beat of his own drum. That's this millisecond timing clock deficit and it is measurable and it is trainable. And the interesting thing about this millisecond timing clock and the company that has done something about it to measure it and train it, it's called interactive metronome and that was created by a music producer who was also a conductor. And I think he got tired of talking to musicians about their timing and how they were a little bit ahead or behind the beat and he created this instrument to measure it and then train them and it has taken on a whole life of its own. 

Tim Edwards: That's awesome. That's awesome. 

Dr. Stephey: It is phenomenal. So that's a millisecond timing clock and that's usually the first stage of my therapies, nutritional considerations, primitive reflexes and this millisecond timing clock. So that's stage one for me personally. Then we might move into stage two. Stage two is something called magnocellular vision or emotion processing. Your ability to see fast and do it under low contrast conditions because magnocellular visual skills, if it's not the gateway to attention, it's pretty close. So it is about seeing fast and my experience and the literature that I've read over the last 10, 15, 20 years from a variety of different disciplines, cognitive psychology, neuro psychology, social psychology, neuro optometry. When I tell you these things, they're in assimilation of me reading in a lot of different fields and then trying to weave that all together into the model of where I practice currently because it's very different then when I practiced 20 years ago. And I still learn stuff every day. 

Dr. Stephey: I added a new therapy to my practice six weeks ago called the safe and sound therapy. People can google that, safe and sound therapy. 

Tim Edwards: We'll put a link in the show notes for that. 

Dr. Stephey: Yup and it fits into my model of what I do now. And there's the magnocellular theory of dyslexia that most of the people listening to this program are going to go, what? I thought dyslexia was just a reading disorder. Well, that's the outcome. It doesn't tell me why you're having difficulty with reading. It doesn't tell me why you're not benefiting from reading instruction that your peers are benefiting from. It's just given me a label and an outcome. Which is not the way to determine a course of therapy. I would say in most cases, if you have a child with a reading disorder or specific learning disability, which typically means a reading disorder or they even have the label dyslexia..

Dr. Stephey: Invariably what you're told is you just need to do more reading. I'm not going to be so bold as to tell you that there's not gains to be made if you're doing more reading because it's kind of like saying, well, if standard instruction is like trickling water into a bucket, over time, you'll fill your bucket up. That's true, but if you've got a bucket full of holes like primitive reflexes, millisecond timing clock problem, magnocellular vision dysfunction, focusing, tracking and taming problems, et cetera. It's like you've got a bunch of holes in the bottom of your bucket until you even know those holes exist, let alone to have the holes and what they represent assessed, and then put in some sort of developmental hierarchy in terms of treatment strategies, you're completely shooting in the dark. Right? So now if I take that same holey bucket analogy and I stick a fire hose in the bucket, like just doing more reading, I will temporarily fill your bucket up, but not because I plugged up your holes, it's because I poured it in so much. 

Tim Edwards: Gotcha. 

Dr. Stephey: But as soon as I stopped pouring that fire hose in, what I thought you knew it leaks right back out. 

Tim Edwards: So vision therapy will help plug the holes. 

Dr. Stephey: Big vision therapy is designed to help assess how many of those holes you have, what deficits and how big are the deficits, and then let's come up with a developmental plan that makes sense to plug your holes. Because remember there's primitive reflexes, millisecond timing clock, nutrition. Then there's magnocellular vision. Then eye focusing, eye taming, eye tracking. In my model, that's stage two. Stage three is really working memory, executive function, rapid naming, speed and phonological processing skills, and then ultimately if we still need to address it, then there's true reading outcomes and going back and retraining your knowledge of our alphabetic writing system. So that you now can benefit from reading instruction in a way that you couldn't benefit from before because we didn't know you had all these problems. 

Dr. Stephey: I have some kids that it truly is painful to look at print. It's painful. So if I take a kid who's pained by looking at print and simply tell them and I don't recognize that that's the problem, and I say, oh, well, your eyes hurt after looking at print for five minutes while I need you to look at it for four hours a day because I need to do this reading to a dream to intervene to up your decoding outcomes. But your eyes hurt after five minutes of looking at print. Can you imagine looking at it for four hours? 

Tim Edwards: Now there might be some listening saying, wait, what do you mean that there are people whose eyes hurt after looking at print? Because that sounds like a a ludicrous notion to most people. What do you mean, your eyes hurt? You have to read every day. How can you even function when your eyes hurt? 

Tim Edwards: The way I understand it, Dr. Stephey is it's more than just it's, it's, it's almost repellent to some people because of how their brain is processing the way the words look on the paper. So it's not just that my eyes physically hurt, like someone stuck a needle in their eye, but it's also there's some anxiety associated with it. 

Dr. Stephey: Tim, you are starting to catch on. 

Tim Edwards: It's only taken me two years, but I'm getting there. Thankfully we have this podcast. 

Dr. Stephey: There's a term called visual eylea scene and there's a term called visual stress. And visual stress and visual eylea sane really are representative of the same outcome, but their origins are slightly different. And there's a cognitive psychologist in the UK named Arnold Wilkins. W I L K I N S. Arnold Wilkins who wrote a book called Visual Stress, and he wrote a book called Reading Through Color. 

Dr. Stephey: Both are powerful, powerful books. What he talks about is the black and white striped nature of print, specifically and how truly visually repellent it is, for some people you've probably heard the term photo epilepsy or how some people have seizure activity with certain rates of flicker. Well fluorescent lighting flickers and black and white stripes electrically have the potential to do the same thing to the brain that flicker does. And Wilkins, created a pattern of black and white stripes that is specifically designed to solicit this kind of a response from you if you are prone to visual eyelea scene or visual stress response. So you look at this center fixation dot of this pattern of black and white stripes, and my simple question to you initially is, is this comfortable or uncomfortable to look at? 

Dr. Stephey: That's the first question. So if you're not prone to a visual eyelea scene or visual stress response, you look at the black and white stripes and you're like, it feels fine. If you are prone to this response, we have some people who can't even look at it for more than about two seconds and they say it's so disturbing to them in their eyes..

Dr. Stephey: In their brain, in their ears, jaw, throat, chest and/or gut that they can't even look at the stripes. 

Tim Edwards: Yeah, again, that is part of what really attracted me to your practice was you asking me that question during my first visit with you. Because I was one of those who does not like looking at the printed paper and I do not like to physically read. I love to absorb my content through my ears, which is why I started a podcasting network and was in broadcasting for many years. And audible is a big sponsor of all of the shows on my network. But can you imagine though being a student who doesn't have the luxury of absorbing all of their content through their ears? Of course they, the teacher speaks, but you have to read your homework or read a book or do something that requires the visual component and that is why what you're saying is so paramount to the success of children in particular that are going through school. 

Dr. Stephey: Well, I'll give you a couple of examples that are relevant to this discussion. One example is a guy who was in his early 50s, he's got a master's degree in social work and I was telling him this story about the way his two eyes work together and a light bulb went off. And he said, oh, you wanna know how it got to graduate school. He said, I couldn't read and comprehend at the same time. So I read my assignments, tape them, and then listen to myself on tape. 

Tim Edwards: Now, that takes a lot of time to do that. 

Dr. Stephey: Think about that. 

Tim Edwards: That takes a lot of time. So think about had he perhaps had the opportunity to experience vision therapy at a younger age. How much time and how much easier would it have been for him to obtain his master's degree without having to go through that extra time arduous step. 

Dr. Stephey: I had an optometrist come visit me in 2008. She was finishing the vision therapy residency. She came to see me about 11 months into a 12 month residency and during the course of my assessment with her, because she didn't like this grid that I'm alluding to. And when she saw me pull out this grid, she said, you know, I'm probably not going to do very good at this either. But I said, what do you mean? And in the span of about 30 seconds, she said, well, I don't really like to read. And then she said, that's not really true. I hate reading. And then she said I'd rather cut my fingers off than read. That's how painful reading is to her. 

Tim Edwards: It's a real thing folks. I know there are a lot of people that just don't get it because they love to read. Like my wife loves to actually hold a physical book with paper and I'm not talking like on the kindle or something like she just loves the process and I can't think of anything more repellent. 

Dr. Stephey: And that's the truth and so I get it. 

Tim Edwards: It's a real thing and Dr. Stephey, we're running out of time on this episode right here, but it really is a perfect prelude episode to what we have coming up in our next episode. 

Dr. Stephey: One final comment I want to make. 

Tim Edwards: Please. 

Dr. Stephey: Vision therapy is a pretty broad umbrella and there's lots of pieces that can come underneath it. And you could have had vision therapy elsewhere and still have a vision therapy problem. Because if we haven't comprehensively looked at all the pieces of this puzzle, it means that maybe all of your vision therapy diagnoses didn't get treated. Maybe some of them never even got assessed to be treated and maybe the things that got treated worked when you did the therapy. But maybe six to nine to 12 months passed and you come and find me by the web or word of mouth or a school district referral and I measure skills that purportedly we're fine six or nine or 12 months ago and now it seems like you've lost those skills altogether. 

Dr. Stephey: I think those might be examples of why in some circles the perception is that vision therapy doesn't work. My experience would say that you didn't get fully assessed and you didn't get fully treated. And you didn't get treated in the right developmental sequence because for example, I won't do eye taming and eye focusing therapy in my office. If you've got a millisecond timing clock deficit or you've got retained primitive reflexes or you got a magnocellular vision problem. Because my experience has been over the years that if I try to do eye taming, eye focusing therapy without knowing those other lower level developmental skills, it's going to take me longer to treat those deficits to start with and they're likely not going to stick as well. My model is like a house of cards. If you got a shaky foundation to start with, which is primitive reflexes, nutrition, millisecond timing clock deficits. 

Dr. Stephey: If you've got a shaky foundation, the second and the third foundation up is built on shaky ground. So I want to start from the ground floor up. You may not necessarily like all the things that I'm going to tell you, but you'll appreciate the depth of what you'll learn and you'll know the sequence of what should happen. You'll know the depth of what's happening with you or your child and you'll have a much fuller understanding of the work that lies ahead of you and that you know that there's a path that this can work and that's the most significant thing for me. At the end of the day. At the end of the day, you were the judge and jury of whether or not you accept my findings and the knowledge that I have to share. No one's ever accused me of not sharing enough information. 

Dr. Stephey: You want literature on primitive reflexes? I will send it to you. You want magnocellular vision and the theory of dyslexia? Got it covered. You want things about convergence insufficiency and eye taming and eye focusing? I'll send you a couple links. I'll send you some articles. You want, millisecond timing cock deficits, and how it affects our abilities across the board? Got you covered. So be careful what you ask for when you come and save me because it is a red pill, blue pill moment from the matrix. If you will take the time to listen to me, there's no going back. It is going to change the course of how you think about life and what your needs might be and what your kids' needs might be. 

Tim Edwards: I was intrigued from the moment I met you. It's the truth and it was right two years ago and I'm so thrilled to help get this information out because so many lives can be changed with what you're doing. I really believe that with all my heart and soul and like I said a few moments ago, and I'd love for you to kind of tease what our next episode is because all of this is so incredibly relevant to what we're about to talk about. 

Dr. Stephey: And our next episode, I'm going to try to dive a little deeper into how to connect the vision therapy with your kids special education needs and what their educational rights are and how we can advocate with you and for you so that you have more power in your corner so that you can have more power in your corner and be a more effective advocate for your child and their needs. 

Tim Edwards: Thank you for listening to the Move Look & Listen Podcast with Dr. Doug Stephey brought to you by audible. Get a free audio book download and a 30 day free trial of audible membership at audibletrial.com/inbound. You'll find over 180,000 titles to choose from, including books mentioned here in the Move Look & Listen podcasts. You can listen to these books through your iphone, your android, your kindle, your computer, or even an MP3 player. And if for any reason and at any time you choose to cancel your membership, you keep all of your audio book, downloads. Give it a shot for 30 days. You got nothing to lose. Support the Move Look & Listen podcast by visiting audibletrial.com/inbound. We will include a link for your convenience, in the show notes of this and every episode of the podcast. And of course if you like some more information regarding Dr. Stephey's practice or to make an appointment, we will include links in the show notes to Dr. Stephey's website and his youtube channel. 

Tim Edwards: Dr. Stephey's website is stepheyoptometry.com. That's s t e p h e y optometry.com. You can also call the office at 626-332-4510. Again, all of Dr. Stephey's contact information will be included in the show notes of each and every episode. One last request before we let you go on to the next episode. Please subscribe to the podcast from whichever platform you might be listening in. Of course, it is free to subscribe and it ensures that every time we post a new episode, you'll find it right there waiting for you to listen in your podcast app of choice. We really do appreciate your listening and until next time for Dr. Stephey of the Move Look & Listen podcast. I'm Tim Edwards with the Inbound Podcasting Network. 

 

 

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